KAT's Rant On The Magic System of Everway
Or
So, Why Do You Wanna Be A Wizard?
After answering other posts and due to the fact that I'm thinking a lot more analytically about my hobby than I'm used to, I'm wondering why the Everway Magic system is so different when it doesn't have to be.
First of all Let me bring up fighters and schools of fighting. We don't need a separate element in Everway to handle fighters. The resources for the skill are broken up between earth and fire. The idea of a fighting school becomes character back story. Any player is allowed to make up as needed what kind of sword training they had,
One of my favorite scenes in "The Princess Bride" is the duel between Inigo and Wesley. The banter in the scene addresses the idea of fighter schools and the teachings of special moves and the counter moves. Also being a manga/anime fan I've discovered that special moves can be like fighter "spells"
There are games that address this issue by categorizing each move and making statistics for it and such. Everway is content to allow the player the freedom of making up special moves or schools of fighting as he wishes.
If you want to embellish your fighter with a certain spectacular move-Vigil can cut shadows. Then this is covered in powers.
Why then are there special rules for mages? Why a special Element. Can't magic be covered by Water and Air the way fighting is covered by Fire and Earth? Shouldn't the schools of magic be back story material?
Whisper Walker has Open Chalice magic at level 4 according to the book she can- sense energies of all kinds, see auras, call spirits, be possessed, communicate with animal with a specialty of resist magic
Whisper Walker’s Water score is 5 and her magic score is 4 Whisper has an Air of 3 , a Fire of 4, and an Earth of 4. Her specialties for Water, Earth and Fire are all magic based. Water; Speak with Spirits. Fire; Spirit Battles. Earth; Soul’s Wall of Stone,(resistance to magic).
Whisper Walker’s Zero Point Power is Visions of the Departed Spirit; she can tell by sight if a person is awake unconscious or dreaming.(Me too.)
SHE HAS A WATER OF 5!
Water is intuition, psychic potential, depth of feeling... With a Water score at level 5 she should already be sensitive to strong energies, see auras, tell if something gives off magical energy. Sense negative or even positive spirit activity.
If Whisper Walker’s player allots no Character Building Points into Magic, Whisper Walker should already be able to do what another player would have paid 2 points of magic to do with Open Chalice.
What happens if we take the Magic system out and just use Elements and powers?
Whisper Walker’s player wants to do spirit magic. She tells the GM,"I want to channel them, battle them, communicate with them. OH! and I want to talk to animals TOO, and I want to see peoples auras and sense magic and stuff. . ."
"That sounds like a high water score to me. with Spirit powers. Your gonna want at least a level of 5 in Water so that you can sense energies, spirits and auras. Then lets make you a Mage with a school of Magic. That's gonna be a power though."
The Gm continues to question the player about the boundaries of Whisper’s magic. She decided to have Whisper take Speaking with animals as a Water Specialty since Whisper’s player doesn't actually want to have Mr. Ed like conversations with her horse, but wants to understand animals on an emotional level and wants the animals to understand her.
She calls her school of magic Open Chalice (ok) I might have called it simply Spirit magic, but that's just me. She defines that she wants to use her magic whenever, but its not always on, but she can use it whenever spirits are present and she can call spirits whenever and that's pretty frequent as far as I'm concerned.
She wants to call spirits, channel them, banish bad ones, that's pretty variable but its also centers on her, she cant confer these abilities to anyone else. She can't make others hear or see the spirits. So it is variable but only once.
Major? I get control over her character when she is under possession and she wants to have to struggle with certain spirits. Not major to me.
Open Chalice Magic total cost 2 points.
If the player had wanted to keep the Speak with spirits specialty
then she can buy Speak with animals for 1 point (variable) leaving her
with 1 or two points to further buy powers or add back into her
elements.
POSTED ON THE EVERLIST : Mon, 26 Apr 2004 14:40:58 -0700
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[Everway-L] Re: So you wanna be a wizard part 2. From: "Steve A. Jarjoura" > what do you think? > > -kat This was one of the best essay's on the subject, I've read. I agree with nearly every point you've made. I, too, have been a first level mage and found the experience rediculous. I know the theory behind it, namely that fighters protect the mage at low levels, and then the mages become increasingly powerful and protect and aid the fighters at higher levels. What happens when people don't play for years and years, just for the occasional pick-up game? Anyway, the thrust of Everway as a game where the characters actually grow very little in power, gaining in-game boons instead, speaks against building a mage with magic one (1). Is the magic score going to increase during the campaign? Through what means? As I recall, there is very little room for gaining character points once a character is created ... purhaps one here or there ... but the primary form of character advancement is through experience (not experience points!) and through in-game boons. So, how does a magic 1 character become a magic 3,4,5+ character? Another interesting point, related to defining an entire school of magic with descriptions of magic 1 thru 9 ... this would work better if the characters are likely to meet other mages from these schools, and preferably at those levels. But, in a game with no practical limit to the number of magic schools (as the players are free to make them up as part of their character background and the GM's are free to make them up as part of their NPC's backgrounds) then what is the likelyhood of ever needing to know what a magic 9 fire elemental can do? [OK, so maybe a GM could arrange for such an encounter, but it certainly isn't implied!] What I would love to see, though, is some of those magic-as-powers that you descibed. Purhaps the questions that you ask to determine what kind of points to spend on a magic-as-power. Something else that popped into my head, was the cost comparison. If a school of magic was bought as "1x Major + 2x Versatile + 2x Frequent" for a cost of 5 points ... that sounds like it would be on- par with putting five (5) points into magic. Unless I misunderstand, then this is point equivalent but easier to figure and use in-game. Sounds good to me! Still, examples would be awesome! I'd have a place to start with putting my magic school ideas down in writing. ~runester~ Posted to the Everlist: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 03:54:50 -0000 |
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[Everway-L] Yes, I wanna be a wizard From: "Alexander Cherry" I can't really put my finger on it right now, but it feels, Kat, like you're missing something. Maybe you're bringing your own baggage of what magic "should" be into the game. I'm going to ramble below and maybe I'll figure out how to get my words out. If not, maybe you'll be able to comprehend what I'm saying anyway. First, there is a big difference between "combat skills" (one really teensy thing in the big scheme of things) and "magic" (whose guidelines in the book say something like "a rule of thumb is magic should be allowed to do anything that two elements of the same level could do). Smacking magic into Air and Water seems to cheapen the entire idea of "magic" as something to learn. (This is distinctly opposed to "magical" things like powers and/or high attributes, which already have their own niche and are separate from learned magic, even if their powers are impressively large. An Oracle might have huge Water and Air and a specialty in prophecy, and I'd consider her magical, but not a sorcerer, not a magician - JUST LIKE Hercules having a high Fire and Earth, he's magical, but he's not a magician either). Second, assuming that Water and Air are the magical attrbitutes (one for active, one for resisting) takes away from magic being pan-elemental, equal opportunity even. No longer can you have a low-Water, low-Air, high-Fire magician, because, whooops, Water and Air are the magic elements, tough cookies. Magic's ability to be tied to ANY of the four elements is one of its major benefits, in my opinion, because it doesn't force the stereotype of "ooh, magician, high water, high air." You're needlessly restricting magic by saying that "Water = Magic Skills." You're cutting it to one fourth of its concept by shoving it into a single element, even if you replace some of it with powers. Yes, Everway probably should have better uses for apprentices (I think my Overcasting addendum to the Magic Formula is a good start) but I don't think cutting magic out entirely is the answer. Magic is more than just a specialty. It's more than just an element. It's a sacrifice and it's discipline, and it can be tied to any element. I think thunderpigeon has the right idea - artisan magic, intellectual magic, warrior's magic. It's a cohesive thing, and it's a special place, and it's MORE than just "Water." Anyway. I like Magic. I love the Magic Formula. Yes, we should find ways to make apprentices work better (see Overcasting, again) but I don't think that removing Magic is the answer. Posted on the Everlist: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 18:07:34 -0000 |
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Re: [Everway-L] So you wanna be a wizard part 2. From: Lord Hades Your post was hilarious, Kat. Thank-you. I understand what you mean about the various magic systems and applications of magic in all the different games we play. Even Mage makes having any Sphere at Rank One pretty pathetic. To address these issues, I think GM's and players have to get creative and start bending the rules. For example, at Level 1 my gf can use her Spirit Magic to detect and see Spirits, to speak with Spirits and have them give her a favorable reaction. Now, this came in handy when she had to figure out why a town was being plagued with nightmares, which were emanating from a secret cave beneath the community. See, other people in town with high Water scores were sensitive to the Spirits but could not see them, or they could see them but were unable to speak with them, or they could speak with them but always got a hostile reaction. Persephone (my gf Hero) was able to do all three and then some. To me, Schools of Magic and magic ratings are like, well, sports... Im a big guy and Im pretty strong (good Earth and Fire), but I have not been trained how to use my strength and size on a football field or a wrestling mat, so that someone with the same size and strength could probably smash me in football or wrestling because they have the training and experience to do so. Like, I do not know if everyone in a Realm with a high enough Water instantly become psychic and magical. I mean, Water pertains to more than just psychic ability or magic. Maybe they are all connected to a deity that is a Water goddess and they have super high intuition? Or maybe they are great natural empaths and have a perfect social order because of it? Like, in the real world, I have a pretty high Air score - I am pretty intelligent - but my gf has trained and worked at being a career developer for so long that she is way far ahead of me when it comes to our professional standing and ability. I defer to her, and she actually trained me to do my job, but she is still better at it than me. In the end its all about you and your style of play. Whatever works for you, right? Just wanted to offer some of my own insights and thoughts. Posted to the Everlist: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 07:08:53 -0700 (PDT) |
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[Everway-L] Re: So you wanna be a wizard part 2. From: "jonfreeman2000" > Is adding a second set of rules to a game to govern magic a throw back to > the dawnings of the hobby? Is it because Mages live by a different set of > rules so the system should express that? ----I guess it depends on how you view magic. I'm undecided whether Everway intended to express that cosmology in its rules or whether as a game by a gamer for gamers, the old magic-user-class thing was too escape from. Bring on the spell lists, equipment lists, etc ...much snippage... > There is nothing here compelling me to ever want to play a evermage below a > rank of 3 after all flux of 3 can be very cool allowing you to make > arrowheads open locks, and alter your own features. > > what is it that makes other people want to play mages? Is it the resource > management of spells. (this can be fun but is not really part of the > everway package) ---It make be this element ...more snipped... > I as a player was less interested in the "school" of magic as a resource. > I didn't seek out other wizards to learn from, the fun for me was learning > it myself. > > Ive played priestesses however and the "school" of magic there is very > important to the flavor of the character. having a group that practices > rituals that support the divine magic of the characters belief is rather > important. > > It makes me curious. Again I can't think of a reason why Everway needed to > have a seperate element or seperate rules for governing magic, but I'm not > all that sure that the schoold of magic are unnecessary. > > Infact I think that there should be more building of schools, not just for > magic, but for fighting, for music and arts, for faith. I think it would > be rather neat if a spherewalker were to go to specific spheres to study > this form of sword dancing and then another sphere to study a mystic music > style that paints visual stories in the minds of listeners as the player > plays. > > what do you think? > -kat ---Much Agreement. I really think this is the direction I like to see my roleplaying going in. The quest for knowledge and improvement and wisdom is the real focus of what schools are about, not the way they are expressed in rules, or a contrivance to justify rules mechanics. I'm not so interested in that. If they allow cool backstories and motivations for the future of pcs then thats what pushes my buttons. This was exactly what I've been hoping to achieve in my sci-fi space opera Everway setting which has various mystic schools (like Jedi/psionic/martialarts) that provide candidates for The Rangers. Great Post Kat, thanks. A Thousand Times Jon F Posted to the Everlist: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 14:43:56 -0000 |
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Re: [Everway-L] So you wanna be a wizard From: David Sklar Wow, that's a lot to cover. I think what's going on is that Tweet wanted us to feel that anyone can have a little bit of magic, but to be a wizard--that takes sacrifice and endurance. Theoretically, you could use the same mechanic to develop other specific paths--a warrior of an intensive tradition might be able to write paths in that tradition and get special abilities above and beyond the fire score from that path (for example, with a path score of 3 and a fire score of 4, he might be able to fight 3 opponents with fire 3 as easily as 1); or a monk or artisan or _whatever_ might also get special monk or artisan abilities the same way. In any case, I think the idea is partly to reflect the discipline inherent in studying a specific path as opposed to learning whatever you learn on the road as you go; partly to make it possible to compound several powers with the progression (i.e., a person with a level-4 power gets _one_ power, but a person with level-4 magic gets 4 powers of varying degrees); and partly to emphasize that intensive study really is different--that a person with some special gifts, or who picked up a spell or two along the way, is _not_ a wizard in the real sense of the word. I guess the way I see it, anyone _can_ sense other people's emotions, though not everyone does it well; anyone _can_ fight if you put a sword in their hands, though it's hard to do it well without training; anyone _can_ stick a plant in the garden and water it and hope it comes out well. But not everyone can read auras, or shoot fire from their fingertips, or sing to their plants and make them grow. Some people might be born with these powers, or granted them by the fairies, or some such--in which case they're powers; while others might study intensively so that they can learn these things--in which case they're magic. Was that helpful at all? I know you've put a lot more thought into this game than I have (I've been playing D&D lately--which may be why I use so many combat references this time around), and I'm probably rambling more than I needed to, but I think (I hope) I have some useful thoughts in there that you might find helpful, even if ultimately you only find them helpful in finding a way to ditch the old rules. Another thought is that the reason for magic as a path rather than a set of distinct powers is so that a player _can_ expect to progress along that path. That is, if you have distinct powers you were born with, then you're not going to be born again with any more, but if you have a path, then you can say to your GM, "I have studied 3 more years in my tower, I have wandered the world and had these adventures, I have spoken with stones and trees--I believe it is time for me to learn the next tier." Posted to the Everlist: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 08:31:30 -0700 (PDT) |